1
00:00:12,260 --> 00:00:09,830
on this episode of skeptic oh if we need

2
00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:12,270
a little bit of that Yankee imperialism

3
00:00:16,940 --> 00:00:14,970
mixed into the mix too in that you know

4
00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:16,950
say oh I wast great

5
00:00:21,350 --> 00:00:18,810
I'll go isolate that or isolated it

6
00:00:23,870 --> 00:00:21,360
right here it's DMT I'll figure out a

7
00:00:25,939 --> 00:00:23,880
way to crush it down crank it out I'll

8
00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:25,949
give it to people and hey lo and behold

9
00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:29,850
they have if not the same experience a

10
00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:33,210
lot of the same kinds of experiences you

11
00:00:39,469 --> 00:00:36,090
know and I'll pull you up there okay

12
00:00:42,049 --> 00:00:39,479
that's a very common trope in stories

13
00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:42,059
about ayahuasca but in fact I was cos

14
00:00:46,460 --> 00:00:44,010
cold ayahuasca because of the vine

15
00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:46,470
ayahuasca which is not the trip domain

16
00:00:51,110 --> 00:00:49,290
containing compound and it's the blocker

17
00:00:52,700 --> 00:00:51,120
right the one that blocks it in your

18
00:00:55,670 --> 00:00:52,710
stomach so that it doesn't run through

19
00:00:59,270 --> 00:00:55,680
it so that you can process the DMT right

20
00:01:01,729 --> 00:00:59,280
well correct it exactly at a biochemical

21
00:01:05,149 --> 00:01:01,739
level but in fact you can take ayahuasca

22
00:01:07,820 --> 00:01:05,159
without any DMT admixture then have a

23
00:01:10,100 --> 00:01:07,830
similar experience you know there's that

24
00:01:13,130 --> 00:01:10,110
attitude there's that pharmacological

25
00:01:14,929 --> 00:01:13,140
attitude of taking the taking the

26
00:01:16,910 --> 00:01:14,939
Constituent chemicals saying will that

27
00:01:18,859 --> 00:01:16,920
plant works because of the Constituent

28
00:01:20,810 --> 00:01:18,869
chemical and not looking at the bigger

29
00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:20,820
picture and saying well there's a

30
00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:22,530
relationship between the human and the

31
00:01:40,190 --> 00:01:26,850
and the plant that they're imbibing stay

32
00:01:44,070 --> 00:01:42,390
welcome to skeptic aware we explore

33
00:01:46,380 --> 00:01:44,080
controversial science with leading

34
00:01:49,290 --> 00:01:46,390
researchers thinkers and their critics

35
00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:49,300
today the use of medicinal plants in

36
00:01:52,890 --> 00:01:51,490
particular in particular what are

37
00:01:55,860 --> 00:01:52,900
generally called hallucinogens or

38
00:01:58,560 --> 00:01:55,870
psychedelics in healing so our guest

39
00:02:01,200 --> 00:01:58,570
today has quite a bit of practical

40
00:02:03,270 --> 00:02:01,210
experience in the use of these plants

41
00:02:05,850 --> 00:02:03,280
and Simon Green has some really

42
00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:05,860
interesting ideas about how we can

43
00:02:10,530 --> 00:02:08,530
incorporate that into Western medicine

44
00:02:12,570 --> 00:02:10,540
what are some of the limitations what

45
00:02:15,090 --> 00:02:12,580
are some of the cultural changes we need

46
00:02:17,580 --> 00:02:15,100
to do to maybe make that transition a

47
00:02:19,920 --> 00:02:17,590
little bit better for all of us we also

48
00:02:23,250 --> 00:02:19,930
talked about how we might look at the

49
00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:23,260
spiritual implications of these plants

50
00:02:28,410 --> 00:02:25,570
and incorporate them into our spiritual

51
00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:28,420
traditions like Christianity and and how

52
00:02:33,930 --> 00:02:31,090
we might understand Christian healing

53
00:02:36,210 --> 00:02:33,940
inside of this framework finally he has

54
00:02:39,180 --> 00:02:36,220
a couple of just amazing stories about

55
00:02:41,850 --> 00:02:39,190
being out in the Amazonian jungle and

56
00:02:44,130 --> 00:02:41,860
doing healing so it was really a

57
00:02:47,100 --> 00:02:44,140
fascinating discussion I really enjoyed

58
00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:47,110
getting to know Simon and just dipping

59
00:02:52,259 --> 00:02:49,690
my toe into this really important and

60
00:02:55,289 --> 00:02:52,269
fascinating topic I hope you enjoy my

61
00:02:57,210 --> 00:02:55,299
dialogue was Simon Greene today we

62
00:02:59,780 --> 00:02:57,220
welcome Simon Greene dis skeptic Oh

63
00:03:03,690 --> 00:02:59,790
Simon is a healer and the creator of the

64
00:03:05,310 --> 00:03:03,700
quantum life Body Works website you know

65
00:03:07,199 --> 00:03:05,320
I've heard from Simon a few months ago

66
00:03:09,150 --> 00:03:07,209
after he listened to a couple of

67
00:03:11,039 --> 00:03:09,160
skeptical shows and we started this

68
00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:11,049
really interesting dialogue and I just

69
00:03:16,830 --> 00:03:14,410
thought his work with ayahuasca in

70
00:03:20,699 --> 00:03:16,840
various medicines learning from

71
00:03:22,170 --> 00:03:20,709
indigenous shamanic masters throughout

72
00:03:25,020 --> 00:03:22,180
Central and South America and in

73
00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:25,030
Australia and it was just a fascinating

74
00:03:30,630 --> 00:03:27,730
topic and then he's actually published

75
00:03:32,460 --> 00:03:30,640
some radio pieces for Australian

76
00:03:34,650 --> 00:03:32,470
Broadcasting Company that are really

77
00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:34,660
interesting as well and I just thought

78
00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:37,090
this is a topic we talk about a lot on

79
00:03:40,979 --> 00:03:39,010
this show and it'd be interesting to

80
00:03:43,860 --> 00:03:40,989
talk to someone who's really in the

81
00:03:46,110 --> 00:03:43,870
field trying to do this work so with

82
00:03:49,379 --> 00:03:46,120
that Simon thanks so much for joining me

83
00:03:51,090 --> 00:03:49,389
on skeptic oh and welcome many thanks

84
00:03:53,070 --> 00:03:51,100
Alex it's my great play

85
00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:53,080
you you on you well you're welcome it's

86
00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:55,450
great to have you on you know some and

87
00:03:59,220 --> 00:03:57,130
III guess where we should start is

88
00:04:01,860 --> 00:03:59,230
probably with a a background and a bio

89
00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:01,870
on you and how you got interested in

90
00:04:07,170 --> 00:04:05,170
this work but also where this work has

91
00:04:08,850 --> 00:04:07,180
taken you you know in in our

92
00:04:11,100 --> 00:04:08,860
conversations I've gotten emails from

93
00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:11,110
you from these remote parts of the world

94
00:04:15,540 --> 00:04:12,610
where you didn't have internet

95
00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:15,550
connection for days and where has this

96
00:04:22,260 --> 00:04:18,610
work taking you well I had a very varied

97
00:04:25,710 --> 00:04:22,270
career prior to beginning this work I

98
00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:25,720
was I was raised the rice farmer in the

99
00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:29,770
Riverina of Australia and and went off

100
00:04:36,230 --> 00:04:32,730
to the city and eventually became a

101
00:04:40,380 --> 00:04:36,240
insurance underwriter and in the 80s

102
00:04:44,340 --> 00:04:40,390
became disillusioned by that upon return

103
00:04:46,740 --> 00:04:44,350
to farming because of a an accident or

104
00:04:51,210 --> 00:04:46,750
an illness within the family and I

105
00:04:53,130 --> 00:04:51,220
realized the artificiality of that of

106
00:04:54,870 --> 00:04:53,140
that environment in the insurance

107
00:04:59,550 --> 00:04:54,880
industry and I wandered around for a

108
00:05:03,000 --> 00:04:59,560
good bit doing all sorts of odd tasks

109
00:05:07,590 --> 00:05:03,010
and various experiences of illness my

110
00:05:13,140 --> 00:05:07,600
own in India led me to a fairly mental

111
00:05:16,740 --> 00:05:13,150
state whereby my perception was of the

112
00:05:18,810 --> 00:05:16,750
communication with dead fog which which

113
00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:18,820
was which was challenging for my

114
00:05:28,020 --> 00:05:22,930
worldview but nonetheless it continued

115
00:05:30,930 --> 00:05:28,030
to occur and and I had to I had to work

116
00:05:35,100 --> 00:05:30,940
out a manner in which to incorporate

117
00:05:37,050 --> 00:05:35,110
that into my world and that's the long

118
00:05:40,790 --> 00:05:37,060
story in and of itself but eventually

119
00:05:42,840 --> 00:05:40,800
through a very fortuitous sense of

120
00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:42,850
synchronicities I was led to Brazil

121
00:05:47,100 --> 00:05:46,090
where for the first time I encountered

122
00:05:49,860 --> 00:05:47,110
ya-hey

123
00:05:52,730 --> 00:05:49,870
which is a similar preparation to

124
00:05:57,060 --> 00:05:52,740
ayahuasca Colombian preparation of

125
00:06:02,940 --> 00:05:57,070
ayahuasca and prior to this I'd been

126
00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:02,950
working as a as a Cure as a healer using

127
00:06:06,330 --> 00:06:04,450
bodywork techniques that I'd

128
00:06:09,630 --> 00:06:06,340
learned along the way craniosacral and

129
00:06:12,450 --> 00:06:09,640
so on and but for the first time when I

130
00:06:16,470 --> 00:06:12,460
encountered yeah hey I said wow this is

131
00:06:21,840 --> 00:06:16,480
I know this place yeah this is what I

132
00:06:26,910 --> 00:06:21,850
was looking for and and inna somewhat

133
00:06:30,060 --> 00:06:26,920
naive why I pursued that with great with

134
00:06:32,100 --> 00:06:30,070
great enthusiasm and learning along the

135
00:06:34,980 --> 00:06:32,110
way the things things weren't as simple

136
00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:34,990
nor as beautiful as I imagined but

137
00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:39,490
that's that's been the guiding principle

138
00:06:47,660 --> 00:06:43,330
if you will since then the work so over

139
00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:47,670
the last close to dozen years of

140
00:06:57,140 --> 00:06:51,970
interacting with ayahuasca okay and what

141
00:07:02,430 --> 00:06:57,150
Schumer particularly has has become the

142
00:07:06,810 --> 00:07:02,440
the foundation of my work and in the

143
00:07:08,670 --> 00:07:06,820
course of that have have managed to be

144
00:07:11,130 --> 00:07:08,680
interviewed by and and subsequently

145
00:07:13,740 --> 00:07:11,140
produce featured documentaries for the

146
00:07:16,050 --> 00:07:13,750
Australian national radio broadcaster

147
00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:16,060
and that's led me to work with some

148
00:07:24,780 --> 00:07:20,650
significant old people some significant

149
00:07:27,450 --> 00:07:24,790
law bosses in in various language groups

150
00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:27,460
summer tell us a little bit about some

151
00:07:32,220 --> 00:07:29,530
of the interface you've done with some

152
00:07:34,830 --> 00:07:32,230
folks from Western science and medicine

153
00:07:36,300 --> 00:07:34,840
who have started to show more of an

154
00:07:38,460 --> 00:07:36,310
interest I mean there's a real upswing

155
00:07:41,490 --> 00:07:38,470
of interest in these plants in these

156
00:07:43,340 --> 00:07:41,500
medicines in psychedelics for some of

157
00:07:45,510 --> 00:07:43,350
these treatments including

158
00:07:48,690 --> 00:07:45,520
post-traumatic stress disorder

159
00:07:50,940 --> 00:07:48,700
depression a particularly addiction

160
00:07:53,130 --> 00:07:50,950
treatment which is kind of a strange

161
00:07:57,510 --> 00:07:53,140
combination but that's where it's going

162
00:08:00,480 --> 00:07:57,520
how do you see that movement going and

163
00:08:03,740 --> 00:08:00,490
also what do you think is the ground the

164
00:08:06,540 --> 00:08:03,750
grounding for that interest among

165
00:08:10,140 --> 00:08:06,550
practitioners of this do they see this

166
00:08:12,090 --> 00:08:10,150
as a good thing that that Western people

167
00:08:14,940 --> 00:08:12,100
and particularly Western science are is

168
00:08:17,239 --> 00:08:14,950
now interested in these plants and these

169
00:08:21,619 --> 00:08:17,249
substances

170
00:08:24,589 --> 00:08:21,629
I that's a extremely complex situation I

171
00:08:27,169 --> 00:08:24,599
think Alex there's there's a huge amount

172
00:08:28,909 --> 00:08:27,179
of academic work going on now and

173
00:08:31,069 --> 00:08:28,919
specifically in terms of ayahuasca

174
00:08:33,110 --> 00:08:31,079
ayahuasca is very fashionable very well

175
00:08:34,969 --> 00:08:33,120
known and there's a there's a huge

176
00:08:37,100 --> 00:08:34,979
amount of academic interest and

177
00:08:40,219 --> 00:08:37,110
certainly academics who could speak much

178
00:08:43,879 --> 00:08:40,229
more eloquently to that than I but I

179
00:08:46,009 --> 00:08:43,889
think that I know without doubt that

180
00:08:49,309 --> 00:08:46,019
there is extraordinary promise for

181
00:08:51,290 --> 00:08:49,319
healing I've seen healings that that

182
00:08:55,100 --> 00:08:51,300
would be considered miraculous and I've

183
00:08:57,259 --> 00:08:55,110
and for example a certainly a complete

184
00:09:00,470 --> 00:08:57,269
cessation for example of symptoms of

185
00:09:02,660 --> 00:09:00,480
multiple sclerosis was outright denied

186
00:09:08,269 --> 00:09:02,670
as a possibility

187
00:09:13,069 --> 00:09:08,279
by by the the médicos but but along with

188
00:09:15,259 --> 00:09:13,079
that as is unfortunately the case has

189
00:09:17,990 --> 00:09:15,269
come a a recognition that there's a huge

190
00:09:23,980 --> 00:09:18,000
market there and so I asked a tourism

191
00:09:27,319 --> 00:09:23,990
has become has become very large and and

192
00:09:29,689 --> 00:09:27,329
there's no surprise that that the locals

193
00:09:31,569 --> 00:09:29,699
in those contexts have had wanted to

194
00:09:34,519 --> 00:09:31,579
capitalize upon that wanted better

195
00:09:38,389 --> 00:09:34,529
education for their kids wanted wanted

196
00:09:40,879 --> 00:09:38,399
better lives for themselves and and saw

197
00:09:43,999 --> 00:09:40,889
to sort to capitalize on that because

198
00:09:46,549 --> 00:09:44,009
the Yankee dollar is is readily

199
00:09:48,530 --> 00:09:46,559
available and that is causing problems

200
00:09:49,910 --> 00:09:48,540
and I as I've mentioned when we were

201
00:09:52,340 --> 00:09:49,920
chatting that I've just come from a

202
00:09:55,549 --> 00:09:52,350
conference to try and address some of

203
00:09:59,420 --> 00:09:55,559
the issues of potential harm that come

204
00:10:01,519 --> 00:09:59,430
from there and I think that's a dialogue

205
00:10:06,470 --> 00:10:01,529
that needs to be had in a really mature

206
00:10:10,749 --> 00:10:06,480
and ungrounded fashion because I mean I

207
00:10:15,079 --> 00:10:10,759
take I'd take issue with the word

208
00:10:17,059 --> 00:10:15,089
psychedelic and or hallucinogenic in

209
00:10:18,970 --> 00:10:17,069
terms of the particular plants that I'm

210
00:10:24,710 --> 00:10:18,980
talking in terms of the ayahuasca and

211
00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:24,720
quite shuma except a store and the the

212
00:10:30,100 --> 00:10:27,050
mushrooms I would consider them

213
00:10:32,860 --> 00:10:30,110
visionary medicines

214
00:10:35,500 --> 00:10:32,870
and in fact that the the curing the

215
00:10:38,860 --> 00:10:35,510
healing comes about as a direct result

216
00:10:41,230 --> 00:10:38,870
of dialogue between the human and the

217
00:10:44,019 --> 00:10:41,240
plant that they are ingesting and a

218
00:10:46,870 --> 00:10:44,029
myriad other beings that exist around

219
00:10:49,569 --> 00:10:46,880
that and that plant

220
00:10:52,210 --> 00:10:49,579
see but right there Simon is I think

221
00:10:54,269 --> 00:10:52,220
we're chatting before about the

222
00:10:58,420 --> 00:10:54,279
conversation I had with para

223
00:11:01,000 --> 00:10:58,430
anthropology Journal editor Jack hunter

224
00:11:04,180 --> 00:11:01,010
who is taking an anthropological

225
00:11:08,470 --> 00:11:04,190
approach to saying okay as we look at

226
00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:08,480
how these extended conscious experiences

227
00:11:14,259 --> 00:11:12,050
are happening how do we really nail down

228
00:11:15,639 --> 00:11:14,269
what's happening scientifically you know

229
00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:15,649
and as you and I were talking now is it

230
00:11:20,769 --> 00:11:17,810
is it a ritual is the ritual doing it is

231
00:11:22,870 --> 00:11:20,779
it the spiritual doing it you know could

232
00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:22,880
you do this just as well with a a Ouija

233
00:11:27,460 --> 00:11:25,130
board could you somehow access these

234
00:11:31,420 --> 00:11:27,470
spirits or with a psychic or a medium

235
00:11:33,220 --> 00:11:31,430
and and it really raises the question of

236
00:11:34,930 --> 00:11:33,230
we're playing around with not only with

237
00:11:38,889 --> 00:11:34,940
these substances but we're playing

238
00:11:40,510 --> 00:11:38,899
around with potentially these spirits in

239
00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:40,520
a way that that we don't really

240
00:11:46,990 --> 00:11:43,490
understand what are we getting into when

241
00:11:51,250 --> 00:11:47,000
we do this well I think you know we we

242
00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:51,260
get ourselves in in many cultural back

243
00:11:55,420 --> 00:11:53,810
waters you know and I'm thinking for

244
00:11:58,449 --> 00:11:55,430
example of all the technologies that

245
00:12:02,199 --> 00:11:58,459
we've adopted as in modern Western

246
00:12:06,519 --> 00:12:02,209
culture that we adopt without question

247
00:12:08,410 --> 00:12:06,529
mobile telephones or or tobacco

248
00:12:12,250 --> 00:12:08,420
cigarettes you know commercial

249
00:12:13,990 --> 00:12:12,260
cigarettes or or all of the or new

250
00:12:16,090 --> 00:12:14,000
chemicals that come onto the marketplace

251
00:12:18,670 --> 00:12:16,100
glyphosate that are fantastic and

252
00:12:20,290 --> 00:12:18,680
they're going to they're going to change

253
00:12:23,620 --> 00:12:20,300
everything and then we discovered that

254
00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:23,630
that they weren't as great as we thought

255
00:12:26,530 --> 00:12:25,130
and we have all of these raft of

256
00:12:30,220 --> 00:12:26,540
problems we're not a we're not a

257
00:12:32,259 --> 00:12:30,230
thoughtful culture in terms of let's sit

258
00:12:36,340 --> 00:12:32,269
back and ask the questions that you're

259
00:12:37,689 --> 00:12:36,350
asking now but that being said you know

260
00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:37,699
and I think that some of that going on

261
00:12:44,549 --> 00:12:41,730
in terms of this this recent

262
00:12:47,549 --> 00:12:44,559
information and interest in in these

263
00:12:51,329 --> 00:12:47,559
plans but I think that we're coming into

264
00:12:53,910 --> 00:12:51,339
it from perspective where there is an

265
00:12:57,480 --> 00:12:53,920
existent in relationship and we can

266
00:12:59,579 --> 00:12:57,490
actually take the historical information

267
00:13:01,230 --> 00:12:59,589
that the people who have had a long

268
00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:01,240
historical relationship with these

269
00:13:05,850 --> 00:13:03,970
plants and and use them wisely I think

270
00:13:07,859 --> 00:13:05,860
that the big problem is I mean I

271
00:13:10,710 --> 00:13:07,869
mentioned spirits and that's a huge a

272
00:13:15,150 --> 00:13:10,720
huge stretch for a lot of people and not

273
00:13:17,369 --> 00:13:15,160
very scientific in any way but I think

274
00:13:20,999 --> 00:13:17,379
that you can start from the point of the

275
00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:21,009
people who know ya who know about these

276
00:13:27,869 --> 00:13:23,730
these plant in this particular instance

277
00:13:30,869 --> 00:13:27,879
and say will you say it's that okay we

278
00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:30,879
have a cultural difficulty with that but

279
00:13:36,059 --> 00:13:33,490
not to discard that I mean a lot of what

280
00:13:38,669 --> 00:13:36,069
occurs in terms of meeting with

281
00:13:40,980 --> 00:13:38,679
indigenous practice is well that and I

282
00:13:43,290 --> 00:13:40,990
think I think Jack mentioned this in

283
00:13:45,329 --> 00:13:43,300
terms of anthropology this idea that

284
00:13:47,879 --> 00:13:45,339
well yeah if they do that and they have

285
00:13:49,439 --> 00:13:47,889
those rituals but that's clearly absurd

286
00:13:51,239 --> 00:13:49,449
and so with that's just their

287
00:13:52,799 --> 00:13:51,249
superstition we don't need to pay any

288
00:13:54,030 --> 00:13:52,809
attention to that and I think that's the

289
00:13:59,340 --> 00:13:54,040
thing that we should be paying attention

290
00:14:02,970 --> 00:13:59,350
to you know if if senior custodian zuv

291
00:14:05,249 --> 00:14:02,980
law here in Australia say don't go into

292
00:14:08,389 --> 00:14:05,259
that country that sickness country well

293
00:14:12,379 --> 00:14:08,399
rather than just saying you know a

294
00:14:18,150 --> 00:14:12,389
superstition let's ask why and find out

295
00:14:20,100 --> 00:14:18,160
find out how we can how we can make a

296
00:14:22,439 --> 00:14:20,110
common language how we can make an

297
00:14:26,009 --> 00:14:22,449
interface that that works so that we can

298
00:14:30,030 --> 00:14:26,019
describe those things from our own point

299
00:14:34,590 --> 00:14:30,040
of view I I'm very much rejecting of the

300
00:14:38,369 --> 00:14:34,600
the psychologizing of everything you

301
00:14:40,289 --> 00:14:38,379
know in terms of will they say spirits

302
00:14:44,340 --> 00:14:40,299
for example but what they mean is some

303
00:14:46,919 --> 00:14:44,350
kind of subset of the subconscious or

304
00:14:51,989 --> 00:14:46,929
some such you know I I when I say

305
00:14:53,309 --> 00:14:51,999
spirits I mean thinking above it you

306
00:14:54,150 --> 00:14:53,319
know but let me take the other side of

307
00:14:55,770 --> 00:14:54,160
that because

308
00:14:59,010 --> 00:14:55,780
maybe we need a little bit of that

309
00:15:02,070 --> 00:14:59,020
Yankee imperialism mixed into the mix

310
00:15:04,050 --> 00:15:02,080
too in that you know say oh I wast great

311
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:04,060
I'll go isolate that or isolated it

312
00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:06,610
right here it's DMT I'll figure out a

313
00:15:11,190 --> 00:15:09,130
way to crush it down crank it out I'll

314
00:15:15,090 --> 00:15:11,200
give it to people and hey lo and behold

315
00:15:18,450 --> 00:15:15,100
they have if not the same experience a

316
00:15:21,590 --> 00:15:18,460
lot of the same kinds of experiences you

317
00:15:24,330 --> 00:15:21,600
know and I'll pull you up there okay

318
00:15:26,070 --> 00:15:24,340
because that's what I think and I'm

319
00:15:29,820 --> 00:15:26,080
recalling this is one of the reasons for

320
00:15:32,190 --> 00:15:29,830
my contact with you in the in the first

321
00:15:35,970 --> 00:15:32,200
instance is that that's a very common

322
00:15:38,310 --> 00:15:35,980
trout in in stories about ayahuasca but

323
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:38,320
in fact I was cos called ayahuasca

324
00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:40,810
because of the vine ayahuasca which is

325
00:15:45,750 --> 00:15:43,690
not the trip domain containing compound

326
00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:45,760
and it's the blocker right the one that

327
00:15:49,110 --> 00:15:47,530
blocks it in your stomach so that it

328
00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:49,120
doesn't run through it so that you can

329
00:15:55,380 --> 00:15:52,530
process the DMT right well correct it

330
00:15:58,200 --> 00:15:55,390
exactly at a biochemical level but in

331
00:16:01,590 --> 00:15:58,210
fact you can take ayahuasca without any

332
00:16:04,140 --> 00:16:01,600
DMT add mixtures and have a similar

333
00:16:07,770 --> 00:16:04,150
experience the visions aren't as bribes

334
00:16:09,690 --> 00:16:07,780
yes the DMT containing plant gives

335
00:16:11,970 --> 00:16:09,700
brightness to the visions but it's the

336
00:16:14,970 --> 00:16:11,980
intelligence of the ayahuasca of the

337
00:16:18,780 --> 00:16:14,980
vine that plant that contains the MAOI

338
00:16:21,870 --> 00:16:18,790
inhibitors that allows for the for the

339
00:16:23,790 --> 00:16:21,880
oral application of DMT they're not the

340
00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:23,800
same thing and as you mentioned Rick I

341
00:16:32,100 --> 00:16:29,250
recall that many of his many of his

342
00:16:35,820 --> 00:16:32,110
subjects were extraordinarily confused

343
00:16:38,310 --> 00:16:35,830
yeah by what they encountered or

344
00:16:39,990 --> 00:16:38,320
surprised to say the least and I think

345
00:16:42,330 --> 00:16:40,000
this is one of those instances where we

346
00:16:45,570 --> 00:16:42,340
can say well you know there is that

347
00:16:48,690 --> 00:16:45,580
attitude there's that pharmacological

348
00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:48,700
attitude of taking the taking the

349
00:16:52,350 --> 00:16:50,290
Constituent chemicals saying well that

350
00:16:54,330 --> 00:16:52,360
plant works because of the Constituent

351
00:16:56,130 --> 00:16:54,340
chemical and not looking at the bigger

352
00:16:58,560 --> 00:16:56,140
picture and saying well it's a

353
00:17:01,110 --> 00:16:58,570
relationship there's a relational

354
00:17:03,020 --> 00:17:01,120
there's a relationship between the human

355
00:17:06,090 --> 00:17:03,030
and it and the plant that they're

356
00:17:07,590 --> 00:17:06,100
imbibing and you know we could have gone

357
00:17:12,749 --> 00:17:07,600
to

358
00:17:14,490 --> 00:17:12,759
long-standing relationship with those

359
00:17:18,329 --> 00:17:14,500
clans and saying what do you think about

360
00:17:21,149 --> 00:17:18,339
being two versus MAOI inhibitors and

361
00:17:24,389 --> 00:17:21,159
they they might say well look the the

362
00:17:26,699 --> 00:17:24,399
Mao I divine the ayahuasca is the

363
00:17:30,629 --> 00:17:26,709
intelligence behind the experience the

364
00:17:33,180 --> 00:17:30,639
force and the and the Shatrughna the DMT

365
00:17:37,289 --> 00:17:33,190
containing plant

366
00:17:39,990 --> 00:17:37,299
come give the light to the vision and we

367
00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:40,000
could then have we could then have said

368
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:43,570
well you know maybe intravenous DMT

369
00:17:48,149 --> 00:17:45,250
injections might be a little bit too

370
00:17:50,460 --> 00:17:48,159
much for people I like to hear what the

371
00:17:53,850 --> 00:17:50,470
locals have to say and that may be a

372
00:17:56,549 --> 00:17:53,860
that may be a rural Australian character

373
00:17:59,759 --> 00:17:56,559
Alex but I like to hear what the locals

374
00:18:01,980 --> 00:17:59,769
have been there a long time have to say

375
00:18:04,799 --> 00:18:01,990
about what's going on locally you know

376
00:18:07,549 --> 00:18:04,809
oh no I'm totally I'm totally with you

377
00:18:10,499 --> 00:18:07,559
but I am I do want to push the

378
00:18:12,779 --> 00:18:10,509
materialistic reductionistic kind of

379
00:18:16,499 --> 00:18:12,789
approach a little bit and the reason I

380
00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:16,509
do is because III do understand I guess

381
00:18:20,460 --> 00:18:18,490
a little bit because I'm so many so

382
00:18:22,110 --> 00:18:20,470
often on the other side of this argument

383
00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:22,120
the side of the argument that you are

384
00:18:25,710 --> 00:18:24,129
that says look you guys are full of crap

385
00:18:27,869 --> 00:18:25,720
you don't know what you're doing because

386
00:18:29,970 --> 00:18:27,879
you've left consciousness auditing

387
00:18:31,580 --> 00:18:29,980
equation and you're hopelessly lost and

388
00:18:35,249 --> 00:18:31,590
you're never going to find your way out

389
00:18:37,470 --> 00:18:35,259
the other side of that is somebody who's

390
00:18:39,629 --> 00:18:37,480
saying yeah but for God's sakes if we

391
00:18:41,310 --> 00:18:39,639
can't measure anything how are we ever

392
00:18:44,549 --> 00:18:41,320
going to how are we ever going to move

393
00:18:46,499 --> 00:18:44,559
forward so I can go and talk to one

394
00:18:47,970 --> 00:18:46,509
healer who tells me this and I going to

395
00:18:49,919 --> 00:18:47,980
go talk to another healer who tells me

396
00:18:51,690 --> 00:18:49,929
this and I can go look at listen to

397
00:18:53,460 --> 00:18:51,700
these traditions here and I'm going to

398
00:18:56,659 --> 00:18:53,470
wind up with a big tangled mess of

399
00:18:59,460 --> 00:18:56,669
nothing better I go and take my

400
00:19:02,249 --> 00:18:59,470
reductionistic Pharma logical approach

401
00:19:04,499 --> 00:19:02,259
and I'll just start cranking it out and

402
00:19:07,230 --> 00:19:04,509
I can make a lot of progress there and I

403
00:19:08,700 --> 00:19:07,240
think that that Western method medicine

404
00:19:11,389 --> 00:19:08,710
if we're going to be honest and

405
00:19:14,610 --> 00:19:11,399
objective has made some unbelievable

406
00:19:18,299 --> 00:19:14,620
strides in taking some of these

407
00:19:19,970 --> 00:19:18,309
compounds and figuring out a way to mass

408
00:19:21,730 --> 00:19:19,980
produce them and distribute them and

409
00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:21,740
give them out in

410
00:19:26,919 --> 00:19:25,130
in in proper quantities you know figure

411
00:19:28,690 --> 00:19:26,929
out how to administer them in an

412
00:19:30,669 --> 00:19:28,700
effective way and and and there's

413
00:19:33,370 --> 00:19:30,679
something to be gained by that I think

414
00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:33,380
that that at the same time I totally

415
00:19:36,850 --> 00:19:35,090
respect what you're saying which is you

416
00:19:38,470 --> 00:19:36,860
know I always go back to the base

417
00:19:41,380 --> 00:19:38,480
question is how the hell did these

418
00:19:44,529 --> 00:19:41,390
people ever know which substance has

419
00:19:46,389 --> 00:19:44,539
work for which you know for which

420
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:46,399
treatment and if you go back and you ask

421
00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:49,010
them well you tell me what what they how

422
00:19:53,620 --> 00:19:50,570
they find that out but I think I know

423
00:19:56,139 --> 00:19:53,630
but well the plants the plants told them

424
00:19:59,549 --> 00:19:56,149
how did you know to make this this and

425
00:20:03,850 --> 00:19:59,559
in fact in that instance in terms of

426
00:20:07,269 --> 00:20:03,860
that particular admixture one of the one

427
00:20:10,299 --> 00:20:07,279
of the stories that I've been told is is

428
00:20:12,010 --> 00:20:10,309
that well how did you know to to make

429
00:20:14,500 --> 00:20:12,020
and this goes back to the point of the

430
00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:14,510
active component or the active plan how

431
00:20:21,460 --> 00:20:16,850
did you know to mix the the DMT

432
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:21,470
containing plant to make the to make the

433
00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:23,330
regions bright of well the ayahuasca

434
00:20:27,700 --> 00:20:25,730
told us well how did you know about the

435
00:20:31,169 --> 00:20:27,710
ayahuasca well tobacco told us about

436
00:20:34,330 --> 00:20:31,179
that you know but look I wholeheartedly

437
00:20:36,789 --> 00:20:34,340
agree with you in regards to that kind

438
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:36,799
of discernment or methodological

439
00:20:43,299 --> 00:20:40,010
approach or having a look and trying to

440
00:20:46,529 --> 00:20:43,309
figure out how things how things work

441
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:46,539
and I think that I think that the

442
00:20:51,669 --> 00:20:49,850
technologies such as the ones that we're

443
00:20:53,529 --> 00:20:51,679
talking and I'm talking about a kind of

444
00:20:57,190 --> 00:20:53,539
spiritual technology of cultural

445
00:20:59,380 --> 00:20:57,200
technology such that that we're

446
00:21:01,690 --> 00:20:59,390
discussing I think they come

447
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:01,700
they've come about in exactly the same

448
00:21:06,909 --> 00:21:04,490
way or traditional Chinese medicine for

449
00:21:11,940 --> 00:21:06,919
example if something works for three

450
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:11,950
thousand years and and by all measures

451
00:21:19,779 --> 00:21:16,730
Chinese apart from perhaps social ones

452
00:21:21,549 --> 00:21:19,789
but but certainly in terms of if you

453
00:21:24,580 --> 00:21:21,559
take a look at China it's it's doing

454
00:21:26,860 --> 00:21:24,590
pretty well if it's medical system if

455
00:21:28,180 --> 00:21:26,870
it's medical system has has lasted that

456
00:21:30,430 --> 00:21:28,190
test of time then there must be

457
00:21:32,260 --> 00:21:30,440
something to it and it's a it's a

458
00:21:34,450 --> 00:21:32,270
process of observation repeated

459
00:21:35,110 --> 00:21:34,460
observation experimental observation

460
00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:35,120
just

461
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:37,130
in a different language to Western

462
00:21:41,350 --> 00:21:38,930
science but but one that works

463
00:21:43,630 --> 00:21:41,360
nonetheless and I think the same with

464
00:21:44,500 --> 00:21:43,640
with these traditions of curandera small

465
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:44,510
shamanism

466
00:21:51,220 --> 00:21:46,570
I don't think there is any such thing as

467
00:21:55,420 --> 00:21:51,230
shamanism but I agree that that you can

468
00:21:59,860 --> 00:21:55,430
have if if anything goes if anything

469
00:22:03,040 --> 00:21:59,870
goes then you can have a huge variety of

470
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:03,050
opinions well well your illness is

471
00:22:09,310 --> 00:22:06,490
caused by sorcery from over there or

472
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:09,320
your illness is caused because you're

473
00:22:16,180 --> 00:22:12,650
disconnected from from your twin soul

474
00:22:18,370 --> 00:22:16,190
flame in vida Reticuli or some such

475
00:22:22,540 --> 00:22:18,380
thing it has led us to the kind of mess

476
00:22:25,890 --> 00:22:22,550
that that the New Age is with no

477
00:22:30,669 --> 00:22:25,900
grounding in discernment or or

478
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:30,679
methodological approach so I understand

479
00:22:34,030 --> 00:22:32,330
what you're saying and I think that in

480
00:22:37,180 --> 00:22:34,040
answer to your question I think that we

481
00:22:38,830 --> 00:22:37,190
are in a stage where we're going to have

482
00:22:42,340 --> 00:22:38,840
to figure that out as with any

483
00:22:44,260 --> 00:22:42,350
introduction of any new technologies and

484
00:22:45,940 --> 00:22:44,270
we're going to need specialists as we

485
00:22:48,220 --> 00:22:45,950
have with every other endeavor in our

486
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:48,230
culture it's not okay I don't think for

487
00:22:53,410 --> 00:22:51,170
everybody to be their own shaman for

488
00:22:55,630 --> 00:22:53,420
everybody to be able to heal themselves

489
00:22:58,680 --> 00:22:55,640
we still people don't have the time to

490
00:23:00,970 --> 00:22:58,690
research all of their all of their

491
00:23:04,120 --> 00:23:00,980
plants in their environment to be able

492
00:23:05,890 --> 00:23:04,130
to heal themselves specifically that's

493
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:05,900
why we have experts and I think that

494
00:23:11,110 --> 00:23:08,530
that's the with regards to this

495
00:23:13,330 --> 00:23:11,120
explosion of interest in psychedelic

496
00:23:15,940 --> 00:23:13,340
medicines I think we're likewise going

497
00:23:16,930 --> 00:23:15,950
to need experts I don't know if that

498
00:23:19,630 --> 00:23:16,940
answers your question

499
00:23:21,070 --> 00:23:19,640
well I think it begins to it begins to

500
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:21,080
answer it and I think you're right I

501
00:23:25,270 --> 00:23:23,330
mean I think that's what I see happening

502
00:23:27,130 --> 00:23:25,280
to just a little bit that I peek into

503
00:23:29,260 --> 00:23:27,140
that world because you know I was just

504
00:23:33,270 --> 00:23:29,270
watching a medical symposium at

505
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:33,280
University of Pennsylvania that was very

506
00:23:38,230 --> 00:23:36,170
top-notch in terms of academic and all

507
00:23:40,290 --> 00:23:38,240
that stuff but it was all about the use

508
00:23:44,050 --> 00:23:40,300
of you don't like the term but it was

509
00:23:46,780 --> 00:23:44,060
psychedelics in clinical work right so

510
00:23:48,790 --> 00:23:46,790
they weren't coming anywhere close to

511
00:23:51,310 --> 00:23:48,800
what you're talking about Simon really

512
00:23:53,500 --> 00:23:51,320
terms of bringing the the ritual and

513
00:23:55,930 --> 00:23:53,510
some of the deeper wisdom into the thing

514
00:23:58,510 --> 00:23:55,940
but they were trying you know they were

515
00:24:02,200 --> 00:23:58,520
talking about you know setting matters

516
00:24:05,260 --> 00:24:02,210
and you know certain kind of humanistic

517
00:24:07,420 --> 00:24:05,270
kind of qualities matter along with the

518
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:07,430
medicine so they're kind of getting it

519
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:11,330
but is that the path forward do you

520
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:14,890
think is it this blending of kind of

521
00:24:20,890 --> 00:24:18,410
Western tradition with healing

522
00:24:23,650 --> 00:24:20,900
traditions as well is that it or is that

523
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:23,660
doomed to fail because we're gonna leave

524
00:24:30,210 --> 00:24:25,610
something out of the sauce that needed

525
00:24:32,710 --> 00:24:30,220
to be in there I I think it's inevitable

526
00:24:35,590 --> 00:24:32,720
Alex I think it's in you know in terms

527
00:24:37,150 --> 00:24:35,600
of I think in terms of environmental

528
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:37,160
issues and the fact of the matter is

529
00:24:43,660 --> 00:24:41,210
that we have invasive species for

530
00:24:45,550 --> 00:24:43,670
example in Australia there's no way

531
00:24:48,130 --> 00:24:45,560
we're going to put things back to a pre

532
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:48,140
colonial perspective and the pre

533
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:50,530
Colonials the indigenous people had a

534
00:24:56,730 --> 00:24:53,210
incredibly sophisticated land management

535
00:25:00,820 --> 00:24:56,740
practices and an incredible variety of

536
00:25:04,060 --> 00:25:00,830
an incredible range of cultural

537
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:04,070
expressions very very sophisticated one

538
00:25:09,010 --> 00:25:06,050
so I think that we change things

539
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:09,020
inevitably by by acting with them and

540
00:25:17,380 --> 00:25:13,730
there's a very pertinent you know 20th

541
00:25:20,740 --> 00:25:17,390
century scientific axiom you know the

542
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:20,750
the the observation of the experiment

543
00:25:26,110 --> 00:25:23,210
changing it and I think there's an

544
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:26,120
inevitability I think that I think that

545
00:25:30,370 --> 00:25:27,770
there's more that needs to be done I

546
00:25:34,540 --> 00:25:30,380
mean clearly I have a clearly I have a

547
00:25:37,660 --> 00:25:34,550
bias clearly my worldview requires a

548
00:25:40,210 --> 00:25:37,670
certain kind of language yeah and and

549
00:25:42,310 --> 00:25:40,220
that's that's my reality but it's also a

550
00:25:46,900 --> 00:25:42,320
reality that's shared by a great many

551
00:25:49,900 --> 00:25:46,910
people around the world and and yeah I

552
00:25:52,660 --> 00:25:49,910
think that we do need to bring the the

553
00:25:58,330 --> 00:25:52,670
Western endeavour to that in a heartfelt

554
00:26:00,940 --> 00:25:58,340
way so that so that we can make sense of

555
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:00,950
it culturally I don't think anybody's

556
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:02,730
questioning it in the cultures

557
00:26:07,850 --> 00:26:05,730
these methods of healing like monkeys in

558
00:26:11,270 --> 00:26:07,860
the central desert I'm I'm questioning

559
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:11,280
how it is that a malefic spirit causes

560
00:26:16,130 --> 00:26:13,410
an illness don't need any facts and

561
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:16,140
figures or statistics to tell them that

562
00:26:21,350 --> 00:26:18,690
what they know to be true is true I

563
00:26:23,570 --> 00:26:21,360
think our culture is the one that's

564
00:26:26,270 --> 00:26:23,580
looking for things I mean we're going

565
00:26:28,010 --> 00:26:26,280
out and and looking for these things and

566
00:26:31,490 --> 00:26:28,020
bringing them back and saying how can we

567
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:31,500
what can we do with this yeah this soup

568
00:26:36,710 --> 00:26:33,690
from China or whatever you know it's the

569
00:26:38,900 --> 00:26:36,720
same as it's always been this expansive

570
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:38,910
kind of cultural process of getting

571
00:26:44,990 --> 00:26:42,690
getting things from elsewhere and trying

572
00:26:46,909 --> 00:26:45,000
to integrate them into our culture but I

573
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:46,919
think heart to me is extraordinarily

574
00:26:54,190 --> 00:26:51,090
heart and respect and respect for the

575
00:26:58,250 --> 00:26:54,200
places that these things come from and

576
00:26:59,570 --> 00:26:58,260
and discern and is extremely important I

577
00:27:01,180 --> 00:26:59,580
think some of those people that are

578
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:01,190
working with psychedelic medicines

579
00:27:08,270 --> 00:27:04,250
incredibly intelligent doctors and

580
00:27:11,060 --> 00:27:08,280
pharmacologists and and and so on have

581
00:27:14,990 --> 00:27:11,070
you know made huge steps both both

582
00:27:17,539 --> 00:27:15,000
clinically and and and culturally in

583
00:27:19,580 --> 00:27:17,549
opening up this debate again but when

584
00:27:22,340 --> 00:27:19,590
we're specifically talking about these

585
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:22,350
plant medicines I think we really need

586
00:27:33,860 --> 00:27:26,490
to be careful about how we bring our

587
00:27:37,340 --> 00:27:33,870
worldview to to those plant usages how

588
00:27:40,700 --> 00:27:37,350
is that how is your personal experience

589
00:27:42,500 --> 00:27:40,710
as a healer kind of informed that

590
00:27:44,930 --> 00:27:42,510
opinion what have you seen out there

591
00:27:47,870 --> 00:27:44,940
that that reinforces what you're talking

592
00:27:54,890 --> 00:27:52,010
it's incontrovertible to me the evidence

593
00:27:59,510 --> 00:27:54,900
you know the anecdotal or or my personal

594
00:28:07,460 --> 00:27:59,520
experience oh and it's a daily phenomena

595
00:28:09,950 --> 00:28:07,470
you know for me so you know I'm moving

596
00:28:13,780 --> 00:28:09,960
energetic processes that don't exist

597
00:28:15,940 --> 00:28:13,790
from the cultural nein standpoint in the

598
00:28:18,930 --> 00:28:15,950
energetic bodies yeah

599
00:28:22,269 --> 00:28:18,940
of a being that then have immediate and

600
00:28:24,220 --> 00:28:22,279
physical immediate physical responses

601
00:28:27,909 --> 00:28:24,230
and that's an impossibility from the

602
00:28:29,740 --> 00:28:27,919
language that we have that we have to to

603
00:28:35,409 --> 00:28:29,750
hand at the moment or certainly from the

604
00:28:38,110 --> 00:28:35,419
reductionist yeah and so you know after

605
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:38,120
a while one needs to get on with doing

606
00:28:44,470 --> 00:28:40,850
life with with the understandings that

607
00:28:46,930 --> 00:28:44,480
one has you know I as I said you earlier

608
00:28:51,639 --> 00:28:46,940
I've seen I've seen for example I've

609
00:28:57,399 --> 00:28:51,649
seen somebody come to a retreat with

610
00:29:01,539 --> 00:28:57,409
yah-hey and taking 8 to 12 synthetic

611
00:29:03,850 --> 00:29:01,549
opioids a day chronic pain American

612
00:29:06,370 --> 00:29:03,860
doctors had said this is sorry we can't

613
00:29:09,549 --> 00:29:06,380
we can't do anything other than this

614
00:29:12,970 --> 00:29:09,559
this will be your life now yeah

615
00:29:14,830 --> 00:29:12,980
and that woman came in a fog couldn't

616
00:29:18,570 --> 00:29:14,840
remember the trip down because she was

617
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:18,580
in an OPA tada Gissel West and I saw her

618
00:29:25,330 --> 00:29:22,570
yeah yeah from the United States and and

619
00:29:30,129 --> 00:29:25,340
taking oxycontin or something of that

620
00:29:34,330 --> 00:29:30,139
nature yeah to the level of a fairly of

621
00:29:36,870 --> 00:29:34,340
a suit of a stupa yeah and after three

622
00:29:40,330 --> 00:29:36,880
sessions with yeah hey I saw her

623
00:29:42,399 --> 00:29:40,340
ritually throw those those medicines

624
00:29:44,860 --> 00:29:42,409
into the ocean and that's a whole nother

625
00:29:46,690 --> 00:29:44,870
subject in terms of discarding our water

626
00:29:48,669 --> 00:29:46,700
supply into the ocean and our medicines

627
00:29:50,590 --> 00:29:48,679
with it but but in that moment it was an

628
00:29:55,090 --> 00:29:50,600
expression of her liberation from that

629
00:29:56,379 --> 00:29:55,100
pain and and I spoke with her six months

630
00:30:00,490 --> 00:29:56,389
down the track and she hadn't had a

631
00:30:02,379 --> 00:30:00,500
return of that pain I've seen as I said

632
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:02,389
to you earlier the complete cessation of

633
00:30:07,509 --> 00:30:04,850
symptoms of multiple sclerosis after a

634
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:07,519
sufferer having suffered for a decade

635
00:30:16,149 --> 00:30:11,210
from those symptoms I've seen I've seen

636
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:16,159
and and here's a harder perspective to

637
00:30:29,919 --> 00:30:24,240
environmental physical phenomena

638
00:30:33,700 --> 00:30:29,929
responding with great force to

639
00:30:36,340 --> 00:30:33,710
events that are from a Western

640
00:30:39,100 --> 00:30:36,350
perspective purely existing in the

641
00:30:41,019 --> 00:30:39,110
psyche of the individuals holding that

642
00:30:46,539 --> 00:30:41,029
ceremony I've seen walls and roof

643
00:30:49,359 --> 00:30:46,549
shaking I've seen thunderstorms thunder

644
00:30:52,899 --> 00:30:49,369
clouds racing across the landscape stop

645
00:30:55,180 --> 00:30:52,909
like a the brake was applied you know

646
00:30:59,249 --> 00:30:55,190
I've seen all manner of phenomena that

647
00:31:02,109 --> 00:30:59,259
resist any explanation by by our current

648
00:31:04,119 --> 00:31:02,119
landscape arouse our landscape of

649
00:31:06,070 --> 00:31:04,129
scientism I don't I don't believe that

650
00:31:08,230 --> 00:31:06,080
there isn't an explanation for those

651
00:31:10,529 --> 00:31:08,240
things but I think here's the issue I

652
00:31:13,659 --> 00:31:10,539
think that those the issue is that those

653
00:31:15,940 --> 00:31:13,669
phenomena are rejected out of hand as I

654
00:31:18,519 --> 00:31:15,950
mentioned with Jack and the and the

655
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:18,529
anthropological process earlier they

656
00:31:22,149 --> 00:31:20,330
just rejected out of hand well that's

657
00:31:24,399 --> 00:31:22,159
ridiculous and I know that you've

658
00:31:26,830 --> 00:31:24,409
brought this up a lot the rejection of

659
00:31:29,799 --> 00:31:26,840
actual data so I'm talking about

660
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:29,809
anecdotal data that's valid I mean

661
00:31:34,419 --> 00:31:31,330
though somebody was asking me something

662
00:31:38,769 --> 00:31:34,429
recently about indigenous Australia and

663
00:31:41,190 --> 00:31:38,779
was there any any academic papers on

664
00:31:43,029 --> 00:31:41,200
this issue and I said no look my

665
00:31:45,220 --> 00:31:43,039
understanding of these things have only

666
00:31:46,419 --> 00:31:45,230
come from personal communications from

667
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:46,429
healers and then I thought hang on a

668
00:31:50,889 --> 00:31:47,690
minute that's that describes

669
00:31:53,590 --> 00:31:50,899
anthropology anthropology goes out and

670
00:31:55,419 --> 00:31:53,600
asks questions and sometimes they ask

671
00:31:57,999 --> 00:31:55,429
questions of one or two old people who

672
00:32:01,330 --> 00:31:58,009
retain the culture and that then becomes

673
00:32:03,190 --> 00:32:01,340
our academic notion of what that culture

674
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:03,200
did they've asked a couple of people

675
00:32:07,180 --> 00:32:04,970
because they're the only people left in

676
00:32:09,430 --> 00:32:07,190
you about those practices and then that

677
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:09,440
becomes truth and I think that we should

678
00:32:14,470 --> 00:32:11,210
bring certainly bring that perspective

679
00:32:17,109 --> 00:32:14,480
to bear as we approach these things

680
00:32:19,509 --> 00:32:17,119
rather than say what can we get from

681
00:32:20,830 --> 00:32:19,519
that or here's a new medicine what can

682
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:20,840
we get from that

683
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:22,970
thanks very much we'll take that I think

684
00:32:27,580 --> 00:32:25,490
we need to step quieter and softer and

685
00:32:30,070 --> 00:32:27,590
with a great deal more respect than we

686
00:32:31,419 --> 00:32:30,080
currently doing well you know I mean

687
00:32:33,489 --> 00:32:31,429
here's the tough thing you're not going

688
00:32:36,210 --> 00:32:33,499
to get a lot of arguments when you put

689
00:32:39,220 --> 00:32:36,220
things that way but when we really start

690
00:32:41,139 --> 00:32:39,230
pulling it apart it gets messy you know

691
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:41,149
we were chatting a little bit in our

692
00:32:44,180 --> 00:32:43,730
email exchange about particularly in

693
00:32:47,619 --> 00:32:44,190
Austria

694
00:32:51,830 --> 00:32:47,629
and you say you can see the effect of

695
00:32:54,470 --> 00:32:51,840
the colonial wisdom tradition of

696
00:32:57,710 --> 00:32:54,480
Christianity and you know how it kind of

697
00:33:01,879 --> 00:32:57,720
steam rolls over and just obliterates

698
00:33:04,700 --> 00:33:01,889
any kind of cultural heritage and that

699
00:33:09,850 --> 00:33:04,710
that people have and just you know it's

700
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:09,860
it's it's really hard to it take from

701
00:33:14,810 --> 00:33:11,850
anthropological standpoint you know to

702
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:14,820
step back and do it but I put all that

703
00:33:20,060 --> 00:33:17,490
out there a a Christian would come on

704
00:33:22,460 --> 00:33:20,070
and tell you they've seen the same thing

705
00:33:25,190 --> 00:33:22,470
and they could probably bring evidence

706
00:33:27,139 --> 00:33:25,200
for it in terms of the amazing healing

707
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:27,149
power of Jesus in Christ consciousness

708
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:30,450
and lives transformed and healings done

709
00:33:38,259 --> 00:33:32,490
and people that have healed in the name

710
00:33:40,940 --> 00:33:38,269
of that spirit so what do we make of

711
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:40,950
Christian healing we can't we can't

712
00:33:47,269 --> 00:33:45,570
ignore that either no we cannot and you

713
00:33:49,549 --> 00:33:47,279
know I agree with you and we're not

714
00:33:52,879 --> 00:33:49,559
gonna sort this out by next Tuesday and

715
00:33:56,060 --> 00:33:52,889
I think that's the reason for this

716
00:33:59,389 --> 00:33:56,070
discernment and the the data collection

717
00:34:03,649 --> 00:33:59,399
and so on so we can so we can have some

718
00:34:05,749 --> 00:34:03,659
kind of relatively solid ground to to

719
00:34:08,419 --> 00:34:05,759
stand on I mean the thing that one

720
00:34:11,540 --> 00:34:08,429
learns particularly engaging with master

721
00:34:14,540 --> 00:34:11,550
plants from the from the Americas is

722
00:34:18,399 --> 00:34:14,550
that there isn't really very much solid

723
00:34:20,990 --> 00:34:18,409
ground but from a cultural point of view

724
00:34:25,460 --> 00:34:21,000
yeah I think we need all of these

725
00:34:28,010 --> 00:34:25,470
studies and observations to try and sort

726
00:34:30,050 --> 00:34:28,020
wheat from chaff and and to work out

727
00:34:35,569 --> 00:34:30,060
what's going on you ask about Christian

728
00:34:38,990 --> 00:34:35,579
healing I have a fairly hard standpoint

729
00:34:41,329 --> 00:34:39,000
in terms of Christianity and and well

730
00:34:43,879 --> 00:34:41,339
they I'm sorry the mechanisms of the

731
00:34:47,720 --> 00:34:43,889
church the imperialist mechanisms of the

732
00:34:51,349 --> 00:34:47,730
church and and I do place the Catholic

733
00:34:56,119 --> 00:34:51,359
Church fairly high up on that list of in

734
00:34:57,790 --> 00:34:56,129
terms of wrongdoings here but I had a

735
00:35:01,000 --> 00:34:57,800
healing session

736
00:35:03,910 --> 00:35:01,010
ceremonial process where a harm had been

737
00:35:06,820 --> 00:35:03,920
occasioned in the poor use the

738
00:35:11,350 --> 00:35:06,830
ill-advised youth the unruly contained

739
00:35:14,350 --> 00:35:11,360
use of ayahuasca and with another plant

740
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:14,360
mentioned watch Emma we entered a ritual

741
00:35:20,740 --> 00:35:16,970
space in order to cure that although

742
00:35:24,990 --> 00:35:20,750
that the causes weren't specifically

743
00:35:28,810 --> 00:35:25,000
available until such time as as we

744
00:35:31,540 --> 00:35:28,820
entered that space and could bring that

745
00:35:35,380 --> 00:35:31,550
particular lens if you think of these of

746
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:35,390
these planters it seems rude of me to

747
00:35:39,970 --> 00:35:37,970
say so but if you think our goods are

748
00:35:41,970 --> 00:35:39,980
good analogy is to think of them as

749
00:35:44,859 --> 00:35:41,980
technologies in the same way that

750
00:35:47,109 --> 00:35:44,869
although living living technologies in

751
00:35:50,350 --> 00:35:47,119
the same way that we use ultrasounds and

752
00:35:52,450 --> 00:35:50,360
MRIs to do Diagnostics occur and era in

753
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:52,460
the Amazon will use ayahuasca as a

754
00:35:59,350 --> 00:35:56,570
diagnostic tool and to understand the

755
00:36:02,140 --> 00:35:59,360
nature of the illness and and then the

756
00:36:03,550 --> 00:36:02,150
appropriate medicines in terms of other

757
00:36:05,530 --> 00:36:03,560
plants and it should be mentioned that

758
00:36:09,220 --> 00:36:05,540
ayahuasca doesn't exist by itself

759
00:36:12,010 --> 00:36:09,230
there's a whole pharmaco pharmacopoeia

760
00:36:14,890 --> 00:36:12,020
of plants medicinal plants that go along

761
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:14,900
with that tradition but in this instance

762
00:36:23,859 --> 00:36:18,890
that the curing was effected and the the

763
00:36:27,099 --> 00:36:23,869
prior wrong righted to a degree and then

764
00:36:30,790 --> 00:36:27,109
there was a visitation from what to the

765
00:36:34,870 --> 00:36:30,800
best of my understanding the the the

766
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:34,880
Virgin Mary well now I'm a I'm an

767
00:36:40,780 --> 00:36:37,850
outspoken rejecter of the Catholic

768
00:36:43,150 --> 00:36:40,790
Church but there were some 10 people in

769
00:36:45,849 --> 00:36:43,160
that in that ceremonial space the person

770
00:36:49,150 --> 00:36:45,859
who'd had the curing and another person

771
00:36:53,740 --> 00:36:49,160
and myself and I was the run one running

772
00:36:56,050 --> 00:36:53,750
the show and I pointed out are you aware

773
00:36:58,930 --> 00:36:56,060
of what that is and and the two other

774
00:37:04,650 --> 00:36:58,940
people bore witnessed so three people

775
00:37:09,790 --> 00:37:04,660
bore witness to this event reality yes

776
00:37:11,500 --> 00:37:09,800
the others unaware of that but before

777
00:37:15,630 --> 00:37:11,510
the person who being who

778
00:37:20,380 --> 00:37:15,640
who was been sickened by this by this

779
00:37:25,030 --> 00:37:20,390
harm it was it was a tremendous healing

780
00:37:30,660 --> 00:37:25,040
event and and in that instance at post

781
00:37:33,850 --> 00:37:30,670
the the prior harm she had she had

782
00:37:37,020 --> 00:37:33,860
subsequently developed a skin cancer on

783
00:37:41,770 --> 00:37:37,030
a tear duct and a and ongoing and and

784
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:41,780
fiercely resistant and how do you say

785
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:44,330
infection in her jaw

786
00:37:52,990 --> 00:37:48,890
now she sought other treatments

787
00:37:57,130 --> 00:37:53,000
obviously but after that visitation

788
00:38:00,820 --> 00:37:57,140
those and she had surgical intervention

789
00:38:03,460 --> 00:38:00,830
as well but the the the root of those

790
00:38:07,630 --> 00:38:03,470
illnesses those illnesses were cured

791
00:38:10,090 --> 00:38:07,640
after that event now what kind of causal

792
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:10,100
relationship in and temporal

793
00:38:16,420 --> 00:38:13,010
relationship those those have is an

794
00:38:18,550 --> 00:38:16,430
extraordinarily complex situation but I

795
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:18,560
mean there you have a situation where

796
00:38:26,580 --> 00:38:22,970
this seeming other this seeming I don't

797
00:38:28,630 --> 00:38:26,590
know if you call the Virgin a deity but

798
00:38:32,710 --> 00:38:28,640
something something that I have no

799
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:32,720
cultural relationship to yeah I wasn't

800
00:38:37,690 --> 00:38:36,050
raised Catholic there to people who saw

801
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:37,700
and this is perhaps an interesting fact

802
00:38:41,740 --> 00:38:39,170
that the two people that saw this

803
00:38:45,850 --> 00:38:41,750
visitation were right Catholics I

804
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:45,860
believe certain antagonism towards well

805
00:38:51,700 --> 00:38:49,010
exactly I mean and in that moment I had

806
00:38:55,390 --> 00:38:51,710
to I had to really check that antagonism

807
00:38:58,090 --> 00:38:55,400
and say well yes I understand that that

808
00:39:00,640 --> 00:38:58,100
exists in me but here's this disgrace

809
00:39:02,470 --> 00:39:00,650
and so you know I don't reject Christian

810
00:39:05,430 --> 00:39:02,480
healing out of hand I think there's

811
00:39:09,220 --> 00:39:05,440
there's many you know very good-hearted

812
00:39:12,550 --> 00:39:09,230
open wonderful people who are Christians

813
00:39:15,340 --> 00:39:12,560
as I'm sure there are Muslims and any

814
00:39:18,340 --> 00:39:15,350
other Abrahamic religion you want to

815
00:39:21,550 --> 00:39:18,350
point to but I think I know so I don't

816
00:39:23,860 --> 00:39:21,560
reject the faith healings at all what I

817
00:39:25,329 --> 00:39:23,870
what I find fascinating alex is that

818
00:39:27,130 --> 00:39:25,339
every time

819
00:39:29,529 --> 00:39:27,140
so so there's no way I'm going to have a

820
00:39:30,969 --> 00:39:29,539
scientific there's no data collection

821
00:39:33,459 --> 00:39:30,979
that's going to say yep but you were

822
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:33,469
right time and that was definitively we

823
00:39:38,650 --> 00:39:36,410
ran that through the supercomputer yes

824
00:39:40,900 --> 00:39:38,660
and that was definitively mother Mary

825
00:39:43,569 --> 00:39:40,910
there's no doubt about that you've got

826
00:39:45,549 --> 00:39:43,579
your ticket you know that's not going to

827
00:39:49,299 --> 00:39:45,559
happen but what I find fascinating is

828
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:49,309
when these curing occur for example the

829
00:39:55,029 --> 00:39:52,249
MS or or any of these instances where

830
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:55,039
there's a profound application of

831
00:39:59,739 --> 00:39:57,170
consciousness and somebody's physical

832
00:40:02,440 --> 00:39:59,749
being changes thereafter the knee-jerk

833
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:02,450
response from the scientists is well

834
00:40:08,890 --> 00:40:06,650
that's just the placebo effect and and

835
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:08,900
I'm always left there hanging and that's

836
00:40:13,900 --> 00:40:10,729
for them that's an ending point that I'm

837
00:40:14,319 --> 00:40:13,910
always left hanging saying we'll hang on

838
00:40:17,109 --> 00:40:14,329
a minute

839
00:40:20,739 --> 00:40:17,119
if we can do this without the the

840
00:40:23,890 --> 00:40:20,749
billions of dollars spent on on the

841
00:40:26,559 --> 00:40:23,900
pharmaceutical industry and all of the

842
00:40:29,079 --> 00:40:26,569
all of the side effects that that that

843
00:40:32,140 --> 00:40:29,089
brings with it why the hell aren't we

844
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:32,150
put pouring billions into studying this

845
00:40:38,890 --> 00:40:35,210
placebo effect that the scientists that

846
00:40:41,140 --> 00:40:38,900
already acknowledge exists and and has a

847
00:40:43,660 --> 00:40:41,150
material efficacy in the world it's

848
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:43,670
beyond me well you know that's such a

849
00:40:50,469 --> 00:40:46,130
brain-dead approach that I don't even

850
00:40:52,390 --> 00:40:50,479
know if we can go there Madonn that so

851
00:40:55,630 --> 00:40:52,400
hard and there that wall just won't come

852
00:41:00,059 --> 00:40:55,640
down the part that I think it is is is

853
00:41:03,729 --> 00:41:00,069
equally fascinating but is just equally

854
00:41:06,969 --> 00:41:03,739
come founding as well is when we

855
00:41:08,979 --> 00:41:06,979
approach it beyond that so you get over

856
00:41:11,109 --> 00:41:08,989
the mind-body placebo thing yeah okay

857
00:41:13,089 --> 00:41:11,119
there is some kind of this extended

858
00:41:15,099 --> 00:41:13,099
consciousness that we're dealing with

859
00:41:17,259 --> 00:41:15,109
spirits whatever you want to call it and

860
00:41:19,209 --> 00:41:17,269
then there's somehow interacting with

861
00:41:21,759 --> 00:41:19,219
this and we're going to kind of begin to

862
00:41:23,769 --> 00:41:21,769
wrestle that to the ground then I think

863
00:41:27,479 --> 00:41:23,779
what I hear a lot of times is what what

864
00:41:30,759 --> 00:41:27,489
you just alluded to is that we

865
00:41:33,190 --> 00:41:30,769
psychologizing even about that other

866
00:41:35,109 --> 00:41:33,200
world you know well the spirits are out

867
00:41:37,349 --> 00:41:35,119
there but they come forth and come in

868
00:41:39,099 --> 00:41:37,359
what shape are needed for the particular

869
00:41:41,349 --> 00:41:39,109
individual the Virge

870
00:41:43,269 --> 00:41:41,359
Mary isn't really out there it's just

871
00:41:46,170 --> 00:41:43,279
the projection of that person's

872
00:41:48,759 --> 00:41:46,180
consciousness into the field of

873
00:41:50,319 --> 00:41:48,769
consciousness that then manifests this

874
00:41:53,140 --> 00:41:50,329
well wait a minute I mean now that's

875
00:41:56,019 --> 00:41:53,150
just her but we're just making all that

876
00:41:57,880 --> 00:41:56,029
stuff up too you know I just did an

877
00:42:01,390 --> 00:41:57,890
interview not too long ago with a guy

878
00:42:05,259 --> 00:42:01,400
ragu Marcus and David silver who are

879
00:42:06,970 --> 00:42:05,269
both were followers of a spiritual

880
00:42:12,190 --> 00:42:06,980
teacher that I feel a great connection

881
00:42:15,430 --> 00:42:12,200
to neem karoli baba from India and so so

882
00:42:18,370 --> 00:42:15,440
the in curly baba is back in the 60s and

883
00:42:21,029 --> 00:42:18,380
he's got Ram Dass and Krishna Das you

884
00:42:23,979 --> 00:42:21,039
know the famous cure time musician and

885
00:42:26,799 --> 00:42:23,989
David sewer and Robin Marcus and these

886
00:42:29,289 --> 00:42:26,809
guys around they're all Jewish guys

887
00:42:31,690 --> 00:42:29,299
brought up that's their education he's

888
00:42:33,759 --> 00:42:31,700
talking to about Jesus right and he's

889
00:42:35,349 --> 00:42:33,769
saying that the tears are dreaming or

890
00:42:38,739 --> 00:42:35,359
streaming down his face as he talks

891
00:42:40,930 --> 00:42:38,749
about Jesus and and how he he says you

892
00:42:43,630 --> 00:42:40,940
know Polly every Christmas I go to the

893
00:42:45,819 --> 00:42:43,640
church and this and that and it's so you

894
00:42:48,489 --> 00:42:45,829
gotta wonder you gotta wonder two things

895
00:42:51,029 --> 00:42:48,499
so here is a guy who is a spiritual

896
00:42:54,599 --> 00:42:51,039
master let's give him that and he's

897
00:42:59,039 --> 00:42:54,609
corroborating the reality of that

898
00:43:01,900 --> 00:42:59,049
spiritual being he's not there's no

899
00:43:03,690 --> 00:43:01,910
projecting psychologizing any of that

900
00:43:07,210 --> 00:43:03,700
stuff you see no that's a real

901
00:43:09,430 --> 00:43:07,220
powerfully super important spiritual

902
00:43:11,950 --> 00:43:09,440
being that's out there it's a power but

903
00:43:15,220 --> 00:43:11,960
there's also a certain playfulness of it

904
00:43:17,620 --> 00:43:15,230
that I think is is you know evident at

905
00:43:19,479 --> 00:43:17,630
least what I hear in the in the the work

906
00:43:22,029 --> 00:43:19,489
with shamans and healers too is that

907
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:22,039
there's this trickster playful kind of

908
00:43:27,220 --> 00:43:24,890
thing that why is he bringing Jesus up

909
00:43:29,710 --> 00:43:27,230
to these to these guys who were raised

910
00:43:32,109 --> 00:43:29,720
in Jewish tradition right it's kind of a

911
00:43:34,720 --> 00:43:32,119
twist at week you know and they kind of

912
00:43:37,900 --> 00:43:34,730
see that too so you know the the

913
00:43:40,779 --> 00:43:37,910
complexity of this I think is is is fun

914
00:43:43,029 --> 00:43:40,789
and energizing and exciting but at the

915
00:43:44,950 --> 00:43:43,039
same time it's challenging because I

916
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:44,960
just see so many potholes that we're

917
00:43:50,829 --> 00:43:47,450
gonna step into as we try and figure

918
00:43:52,990 --> 00:43:50,839
this stuff out well as do i and I think

919
00:43:55,089 --> 00:43:53,000
that that's why my point is though

920
00:43:57,670 --> 00:43:55,099
in the immediacy of making people's

921
00:44:01,240 --> 00:43:57,680
lives better with regards to the

922
00:44:05,260 --> 00:44:01,250
playfulness one of the principle healing

923
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:05,270
tools in the tradition of ayahuasca uses

924
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:08,930
an epidural a magical song that has a

925
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:11,930
has a different quality it might bring

926
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:14,450
with it the you may not have a plan to

927
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:16,490
hand but you know the song of that

928
00:44:21,190 --> 00:44:18,170
particular plant and this is not

929
00:44:24,609 --> 00:44:21,200
isolated to ayahuasca could India small

930
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:24,619
but but you can sing me a choral of that

931
00:44:29,170 --> 00:44:27,050
plant and that plants doctor its

932
00:44:31,810 --> 00:44:29,180
sentience its consciousness comes and

933
00:44:33,580 --> 00:44:31,820
applies what's needed to the patient

934
00:44:35,770 --> 00:44:33,590
who's being addressed at the time yeah

935
00:44:37,359 --> 00:44:35,780
summon let me interject and make sure I

936
00:44:40,720 --> 00:44:37,369
understand what you're saying here so

937
00:44:42,460 --> 00:44:40,730
you're saying that if in the absence of

938
00:44:44,589 --> 00:44:42,470
the plant if the plant wasn't available

939
00:44:46,870 --> 00:44:44,599
or they didn't have it or whatever they

940
00:44:49,839 --> 00:44:46,880
could invoke the song and it would bring

941
00:44:52,780 --> 00:44:49,849
forth this spiritual healing from the

942
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:52,790
spirit directly correct and this is what

943
00:44:56,109 --> 00:44:54,530
I what I said at the outset you know

944
00:44:58,150 --> 00:44:56,119
there's this big focus and this is an

945
00:45:00,220 --> 00:44:58,160
indication of this reductionist mind

946
00:45:04,109 --> 00:45:00,230
what's the thing that makes us have the

947
00:45:07,570 --> 00:45:04,119
visions it's the DMT no but in in fact

948
00:45:10,030 --> 00:45:07,580
ayahuasca is is is imbedded in this

949
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:10,040
tradition of doctoring and plant doctors

950
00:45:16,150 --> 00:45:13,130
and and a curandero may may as somebody

951
00:45:18,579 --> 00:45:16,160
who I was scared on my diet with with

952
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:18,589
tens of difference of plants other

953
00:45:23,950 --> 00:45:20,570
master plants that teach through a dream

954
00:45:26,770 --> 00:45:23,960
or or however and then they become part

955
00:45:29,349 --> 00:45:26,780
of their of their team if you will and

956
00:45:31,089 --> 00:45:29,359
so they can sing the song of that

957
00:45:34,750 --> 00:45:31,099
particular doctor that belongs to that

958
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:34,760
plant that has a particular quality or

959
00:45:38,829 --> 00:45:37,010
that celestial being that has that

960
00:45:43,750 --> 00:45:38,839
particular quality which leads me to my

961
00:45:46,780 --> 00:45:43,760
story I was engaged in a watch humor

962
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:46,790
ceremony in the high Andes what humor is

963
00:45:54,220 --> 00:45:50,650
a is a cactus also a strong tradition of

964
00:45:56,260 --> 00:45:54,230
visionary shaman isms in the in the

965
00:45:58,060 --> 00:45:56,270
northern coastal the drier regions of

966
00:46:00,790 --> 00:45:58,070
Peru and into Ecuador

967
00:46:04,420 --> 00:46:00,800
it's similar to the Native American

968
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:04,430
churches peyote you know and and so I

969
00:46:09,810 --> 00:46:06,650
was you know watching a ritual and

970
00:46:14,380 --> 00:46:09,820
you know here Eileen well away from any

971
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:14,390
any hope of recovery in terms of what we

972
00:46:18,430 --> 00:46:16,610
can how we can quantify this

973
00:46:21,370 --> 00:46:18,440
scientifically so you'll have to forgive

974
00:46:23,170 --> 00:46:21,380
me but some spirits arrived and they and

975
00:46:25,570 --> 00:46:23,180
they gave me a particular eco a

976
00:46:27,580 --> 00:46:25,580
particular song and this is often how it

977
00:46:30,070 --> 00:46:27,590
occurred also given their given in by

978
00:46:32,290 --> 00:46:30,080
the plants or by the beings in and then

979
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:32,300
can be used later on like a tool that

980
00:46:36,460 --> 00:46:34,610
you learn or that somebody offers you

981
00:46:39,550 --> 00:46:36,470
you know a gift that somebody offers you

982
00:46:43,150 --> 00:46:39,560
and they gave me an e Carol and that

983
00:46:44,980 --> 00:46:43,160
ceremony concluded as it was to do and

984
00:46:46,750 --> 00:46:44,990
some some time later some many months

985
00:46:51,450 --> 00:46:46,760
later I with in the back in the jungle

986
00:46:55,180 --> 00:46:51,460
with a friend who often our colleague a

987
00:46:56,950 --> 00:46:55,190
digital Eastern Iowa skater and she

988
00:46:59,590 --> 00:46:56,960
asked me that she often would ask me to

989
00:47:02,680 --> 00:46:59,600
do curing Zoar singing her ceremonies

990
00:47:05,170 --> 00:47:02,690
and she asked me to sing and and I

991
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:05,180
started to sing this ikura

992
00:47:10,380 --> 00:47:07,850
from that been given to me from was

993
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:10,390
specific to another plant and not really

994
00:47:17,410 --> 00:47:15,290
in in the context of ayahuasca sessions

995
00:47:21,190 --> 00:47:17,420
you know but I sang it nonetheless and

996
00:47:23,860 --> 00:47:21,200
and these beings appeared and said we'll

997
00:47:25,750 --> 00:47:23,870
be there in 15 minutes and I said well

998
00:47:29,110 --> 00:47:25,760
that's a little bit odd a little bit

999
00:47:30,730 --> 00:47:29,120
human a little bit last time table of 15

1000
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:30,740
minutes they were very human cut

1001
00:47:35,170 --> 00:47:33,290
constructs you know and I said just keep

1002
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:35,180
singing we'll see you in 15 minutes

1003
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:36,890
and I watched it was a moonlit night

1004
00:47:42,310 --> 00:47:39,170
there was no cloud we're in a jungle

1005
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:42,320
clearing 50 miles from the from the

1006
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:45,890
nearest town and and you're singing a

1007
00:47:50,170 --> 00:47:47,930
song that that you don't know from

1008
00:47:52,450 --> 00:47:50,180
memory you've never heard before it's

1009
00:47:54,940 --> 00:47:52,460
been transmitted well it's been

1010
00:47:57,190 --> 00:47:54,950
transmitted and I've sung at this one

1011
00:47:59,590 --> 00:47:57,200
other time in that in that ceremony

1012
00:48:03,190 --> 00:47:59,600
where it was given to me yes okay and

1013
00:48:05,050 --> 00:48:03,200
and so in this ayahuasca ritual the the

1014
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:05,060
curandera who was holding the ritual

1015
00:48:11,230 --> 00:48:07,610
said can't our maestro you know can you

1016
00:48:15,220 --> 00:48:11,240
sing for me and and just add because it

1017
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:15,230
was the moment I chose that song that

1018
00:48:19,850 --> 00:48:17,690
just arose in me so I said I'll seem

1019
00:48:22,850 --> 00:48:19,860
that a girl from there

1020
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:22,860
which was a kind of also directed or

1021
00:48:27,140 --> 00:48:25,050
received if you will yeah it was just an

1022
00:48:29,390 --> 00:48:27,150
the arising of the perfect girl for that

1023
00:48:31,670 --> 00:48:29,400
moment and I was singing and as I said

1024
00:48:33,500 --> 00:48:31,680
they said we'll be there in 15 minutes

1025
00:48:36,230 --> 00:48:33,510
and and I questioned this with my

1026
00:48:40,130 --> 00:48:36,240
farmers mind yeah said that's a bit odd

1027
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:40,140
and and over in the distance I could see

1028
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:46,050
a cloud a storm front coming and we were

1029
00:48:51,350 --> 00:48:48,810
in a clearing in the jungle and I'm sure

1030
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:51,360
you can imagine the force of Amazonian

1031
00:48:57,620 --> 00:48:54,570
rain and I watched this cloud front move

1032
00:49:00,860 --> 00:48:57,630
across the landscape but about a fast

1033
00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:00,870
human jog it was moving across coming

1034
00:49:03,890 --> 00:49:02,730
directly towards us in this clearing and

1035
00:49:06,530 --> 00:49:03,900
I watched it hit the edge of the

1036
00:49:09,260 --> 00:49:06,540
clearing and I'm singing it was a moon

1037
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:09,270
moon midnight really beautiful night the

1038
00:49:14,690 --> 00:49:13,170
moon was full very very light and and I

1039
00:49:16,490 --> 00:49:14,700
watched it come across the clearing and

1040
00:49:18,710 --> 00:49:16,500
eventually it hit the side of the maloca

1041
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:18,720
this thatched hut in which we were

1042
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:21,210
having the ceremony and it was moving at

1043
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:23,130
this pace if you can imagine moving

1044
00:49:27,500 --> 00:49:25,290
across the landscape this wall of water

1045
00:49:30,890 --> 00:49:27,510
at the edge of this storm front and it

1046
00:49:32,990 --> 00:49:30,900
hit the edge of the maloca and I turned

1047
00:49:36,500 --> 00:49:33,000
to watch it come out the other side as I

1048
00:49:39,650 --> 00:49:36,510
was singing and it didn't come out and I

1049
00:49:42,830 --> 00:49:39,660
turned back to look and there was a

1050
00:49:45,050 --> 00:49:42,840
silver wall of water as the as the rain

1051
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:45,060
ran off the other side of the maloca and

1052
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:49,890
and I looked up in the other direction

1053
00:49:56,930 --> 00:49:52,290
and and it had stopped halfway across

1054
00:50:00,920 --> 00:49:56,940
the across the maloca so on one side it

1055
00:50:02,090 --> 00:50:00,930
was a beautiful clear moonlit night and

1056
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:02,100
on the other side it was torrential

1057
00:50:07,070 --> 00:50:05,010
Amazonian rain and this process took I

1058
00:50:10,340 --> 00:50:07,080
don't know how long a minute maybe you

1059
00:50:12,710 --> 00:50:10,350
know of this cognitive distinct and and

1060
00:50:14,420 --> 00:50:12,720
and the rest of the people in the

1061
00:50:16,340 --> 00:50:14,430
ceremony realized that and there was

1062
00:50:20,030 --> 00:50:16,350
this collective gasp that went through

1063
00:50:22,130 --> 00:50:20,040
the through the the people that were

1064
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:22,140
participating and then these spirits

1065
00:50:25,670 --> 00:50:24,210
said to me I told you we told you would

1066
00:50:28,130 --> 00:50:25,680
be there in 15 minutes and the rain

1067
00:50:31,150 --> 00:50:28,140
started up again and kept moving you

1068
00:50:38,529 --> 00:50:35,349
and these things are how can I place

1069
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:38,539
these in in any other context and human

1070
00:50:43,539 --> 00:50:40,729
experience the new to human experience

1071
00:50:45,430 --> 00:50:43,549
that had a profound impact upon me that

1072
00:50:47,950 --> 00:50:45,440
had a profound impact upon the other

1073
00:50:50,710 --> 00:50:47,960
people there and really can't be reduced

1074
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:50,720
in any way whatsoever

1075
00:50:54,460 --> 00:50:52,729
but nonetheless served a whole lot of

1076
00:50:57,759 --> 00:50:54,470
people in that landscape really

1077
00:51:01,229 --> 00:50:57,769
beautifully so I mean that's an amazing

1078
00:51:05,039 --> 00:51:01,239
story and maybe that's a good way to

1079
00:51:07,839 --> 00:51:05,049
kind of wrap things up and and what is

1080
00:51:10,569 --> 00:51:07,849
the future for you maybe you've just

1081
00:51:12,670 --> 00:51:10,579
laid it out is that you know I'm looking

1082
00:51:14,799 --> 00:51:12,680
on your on your website

1083
00:51:18,519 --> 00:51:14,809
quantum life Body Works and there's this

1084
00:51:20,529 --> 00:51:18,529
just immense barren landscape and it's

1085
00:51:23,319 --> 00:51:20,539
funny as you're saying that I was

1086
00:51:25,779 --> 00:51:23,329
thinking of somebody who's on a journey

1087
00:51:28,089 --> 00:51:25,789
on one of these paths and just doing

1088
00:51:30,849 --> 00:51:28,099
whatever work comes up on that journey I

1089
00:51:33,339 --> 00:51:30,859
have a feeling that that's what you are

1090
00:51:35,829 --> 00:51:33,349
you're out there just walking the path

1091
00:51:39,339 --> 00:51:35,839
and and I'm letting it take you where it

1092
00:51:42,339 --> 00:51:39,349
where it leads I I think you probably

1093
00:51:44,589 --> 00:51:42,349
right that image actually taken just

1094
00:51:46,420 --> 00:51:44,599
last year in southern Bolivia which I

1095
00:51:48,700 --> 00:51:46,430
heartily recommend if you ever have the

1096
00:51:50,769 --> 00:51:48,710
chance and magnificent landscape but at

1097
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:50,779
about 4,800 meters it took me a long

1098
00:51:57,400 --> 00:51:53,690
time to walk to that cliff edge to take

1099
00:52:00,339 --> 00:51:57,410
that image with scant oxygen but this

1100
00:52:02,859 --> 00:52:00,349
year I intend to take some central

1101
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:02,869
desert monkey some traditional healers

1102
00:52:08,829 --> 00:52:05,210
from indigenous communities here to meet

1103
00:52:12,609 --> 00:52:08,839
with South American traditional healers

1104
00:52:15,370 --> 00:52:12,619
indigenous healers in Tata patha Peru if

1105
00:52:18,609 --> 00:52:15,380
we can raise the funds for that to occur

1106
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:18,619
and I would like to see more of that I

1107
00:52:23,109 --> 00:52:20,690
think that would be if you ask me what's

1108
00:52:24,819 --> 00:52:23,119
my point of focus as I said the simplest

1109
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:24,829
thing that I can do is to help people

1110
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:28,130
but if I can if I can bring to a greater

1111
00:52:33,910 --> 00:52:29,930
understanding or greater awareness

1112
00:52:37,170 --> 00:52:33,920
greater audience the richness and

1113
00:52:41,289 --> 00:52:37,180
complexity and incredible sophistication

1114
00:52:43,209 --> 00:52:41,299
of australian indigenous curing

1115
00:52:44,610 --> 00:52:43,219
traditions and cultural traditions that

1116
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:44,620
would be

1117
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:50,530
so basically more of the same yes Alex

1118
00:52:58,880 --> 00:52:55,210
bringing bringing some kind of clumsy

1119
00:53:01,470 --> 00:52:58,890
there is some kind of white fellows

1120
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:01,480
articulation of the richness of these

1121
00:53:08,550 --> 00:53:04,210
worlds that we've said are absurd that

1122
00:53:12,330 --> 00:53:08,560
are in fact very much the antidote to

1123
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:12,340
many of our social yield and Simon if

1124
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:14,410
what you're talking about

1125
00:53:19,830 --> 00:53:16,210
resonates with someone and they feel

1126
00:53:22,830 --> 00:53:19,840
like you might be that vehicle to their

1127
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:22,840
healing how do they how would they go

1128
00:53:26,370 --> 00:53:24,490
forth with that how would they they

1129
00:53:28,380 --> 00:53:26,380
contact you and what kind of resources

1130
00:53:30,390 --> 00:53:28,390
could you bring to someone who was

1131
00:53:34,260 --> 00:53:30,400
listening and was interested in pursuing

1132
00:53:37,020 --> 00:53:34,270
that well you mentioned my website

1133
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:37,030
quantum last Bodyworks dot-com they can

1134
00:53:43,110 --> 00:53:41,050
they can basically find me there there's

1135
00:53:45,720 --> 00:53:43,120
there's points of contact there and

1136
00:53:48,990 --> 00:53:45,730
there's some stories there although I'm

1137
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:49,000
not I'm not a organizational capacity

1138
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:51,010
isn't my strong point nor is web design

1139
00:53:59,390 --> 00:53:54,610
nor applicate but there are there is

1140
00:54:02,490 --> 00:53:59,400
some media there some some stories and

1141
00:54:04,860 --> 00:54:02,500
some resources that people can look

1142
00:54:07,050 --> 00:54:04,870
further and and what would they do what

1143
00:54:09,990 --> 00:54:07,060
would that be were they what kind of

1144
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:10,000
services could you bring to somebody in

1145
00:54:15,300 --> 00:54:12,010
helping them in a healing what would you

1146
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:15,310
do well this is my this is my primary

1147
00:54:19,050 --> 00:54:17,410
role this is my primary job I'm in my

1148
00:54:20,790 --> 00:54:19,060
office now I'm seeing clients

1149
00:54:24,050 --> 00:54:20,800
immediately afterwards people come and

1150
00:54:29,100 --> 00:54:24,060
see me on the table we work together

1151
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:29,110
they they work around the globe in terms

1152
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:36,010
of non-local curing and I'm regularly in

1153
00:54:44,070 --> 00:54:40,330
in Peru and elsewhere Colombia and in

1154
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:44,080
regards to working with those sacred

1155
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:46,810
medicines with those plant medicines so

1156
00:54:52,590 --> 00:54:49,210
there's a there's a variety of means and

1157
00:54:56,190 --> 00:54:52,600
and ways in which healing is is effected

1158
00:54:57,950 --> 00:54:56,200
certainly the most efficacious being in

1159
00:55:00,200 --> 00:54:57,960
my experience that

1160
00:55:03,020 --> 00:55:00,210
so for Westerners most often those

1161
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:03,030
plants the most miraculous and so

1162
00:55:09,190 --> 00:55:05,690
certainly that's a possibility that that

1163
00:55:11,870 --> 00:55:09,200
that could occur in those in those

1164
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:11,880
jurisdictions where those plants are

1165
00:55:16,070 --> 00:55:13,890
legal and I should mention that that

1166
00:55:18,470 --> 00:55:16,080
those plants are prohibited in much of

1167
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:18,480
the world which is why I spend so much

1168
00:55:25,130 --> 00:55:21,690
time in in Peru what is the legal status

1169
00:55:28,070 --> 00:55:25,140
of those plants in Australia the same as

1170
00:55:32,210 --> 00:55:28,080
the US but well in fact more more

1171
00:55:36,530 --> 00:55:32,220
restrictive because because there is the

1172
00:55:40,190 --> 00:55:36,540
there is the the allowance of ayahuasca

1173
00:55:45,109 --> 00:55:40,200
use for example in the inaudible Paulo

1174
00:55:47,060 --> 00:55:45,119
Church it was a long-standing fight in

1175
00:55:48,589 --> 00:55:47,070
the Supreme Court and round and round

1176
00:55:50,990 --> 00:55:48,599
and round the Bush administration were

1177
00:55:52,820 --> 00:55:51,000
very opposed about getting through that

1178
00:55:56,030 --> 00:55:52,830
it did eventually get through as and as

1179
00:55:58,040 --> 00:55:56,040
far as I'm understanding the they have

1180
00:56:00,410 --> 00:55:58,050
the right to use that plant as their

1181
00:56:05,570 --> 00:56:00,420
sacrament and I think the Santo Dana is

1182
00:56:07,070 --> 00:56:05,580
also under that taking that path and as

1183
00:56:09,859 --> 00:56:07,080
I mentioned earlier the Native American

1184
00:56:12,109 --> 00:56:09,869
church has a capacity to use peyote and

1185
00:56:13,550 --> 00:56:12,119
their rituals and that's changing you

1186
00:56:17,060 --> 00:56:13,560
know as your laws change I think

1187
00:56:18,950 --> 00:56:17,070
Australia's a long way behind any kind

1188
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:18,960
of change I'd like to see I'd like to

1189
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:22,290
see a similar in terms of curing

1190
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:26,010
potential I'd like to see a meeting

1191
00:56:30,050 --> 00:56:28,050
between those indigenous traditions in

1192
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:30,060
South America and those in Australia so

1193
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:31,170
that we could get some kind of

1194
00:56:38,089 --> 00:56:35,010
legislative allowance for usage of

1195
00:56:40,190 --> 00:56:38,099
indigenous medicines in Australia but at

1196
00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:40,200
the moment they're all prohibited the

1197
00:56:45,500 --> 00:56:42,050
usage of them's all probably been by law

1198
00:56:49,220 --> 00:56:45,510
well it's been wonderful spending this

1199
00:56:51,890 --> 00:56:49,230
hour with you I I certainly have enjoyed

1200
00:56:55,099 --> 00:56:51,900
I love the approach you have and and

1201
00:56:56,780 --> 00:56:55,109
your experiences are probably something

1202
00:56:59,930 --> 00:56:56,790
that we could fill ours with talking

1203
00:57:02,420 --> 00:56:59,940
about it's it's great work and and we're

1204
00:57:05,240 --> 00:57:02,430
really glad you're out there doing it

1205
00:57:07,730 --> 00:57:05,250
Simon Green has been our guest again the

1206
00:57:09,829 --> 00:57:07,740
website is quantum life Body Works of

1207
00:57:11,839 --> 00:57:09,839
course you'll find a link in the show

1208
00:57:14,450 --> 00:57:11,849
notes Simon thanks so much

1209
00:57:17,329 --> 00:57:14,460
for joining me Alex thank you very much

1210
00:57:19,309 --> 00:57:17,339
for for giving me the opportunity to

1211
00:57:20,690 --> 00:57:19,319
display you I've really enjoyed our

1212
00:57:24,799 --> 00:57:20,700
conversation I hope we can have another

1213
00:57:26,329 --> 00:57:24,809
one sometime down the track thanks again

1214
00:57:28,759 --> 00:57:26,339
to Simon Greene for joining me on

1215
00:57:31,819 --> 00:57:28,769
skeptic oh one question I tee up from

1216
00:57:34,670 --> 00:57:31,829
this interview is what is the path

1217
00:57:37,549 --> 00:57:34,680
forward for our Western cultures

1218
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:37,559
acceptance of these treatments of these

1219
00:57:42,140 --> 00:57:39,930
medicines of these healing modalities

1220
00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:42,150
whatever you want to call it how do we

1221
00:57:46,279 --> 00:57:44,130
best move forward in a way that first

1222
00:57:49,190 --> 00:57:46,289
offers relief to people who need it and

1223
00:57:52,549 --> 00:57:49,200
second hopefully helps us understand

1224
00:57:55,249 --> 00:57:52,559
what the heck we're doing so we can in

1225
00:57:57,380 --> 00:57:55,259
our western way replicate it and

1226
00:57:59,569 --> 00:57:57,390
disseminate it as much as is needed

1227
00:58:01,430 --> 00:57:59,579
although that raises the question of

1228
00:58:04,219 --> 00:58:01,440
whether that should be done in the first

1229
00:58:06,589 --> 00:58:04,229
place so there's obviously a lot to pull

1230
00:58:09,469 --> 00:58:06,599
apart there any thoughts you have on

1231
00:58:11,779 --> 00:58:09,479
those general subjects would be would be

1232
00:58:13,519 --> 00:58:11,789
something that I'd like to hear about of

1233
00:58:18,380 --> 00:58:13,529
course the place to do it is through the

1234
00:58:20,359 --> 00:58:18,390
skeptic Oh website at SK EP tik oh don't

1235
00:58:23,150 --> 00:58:20,369
forget the ko or you can leave a message

1236
00:58:25,700 --> 00:58:23,160
right there jump over the forum send me

1237
00:58:27,709 --> 00:58:25,710
a note on Facebook or an old-fashioned

1238
00:58:30,140 --> 00:58:27,719
email whatever you like I do want to

1239
00:58:33,319 --> 00:58:30,150
remind you about my book why science is

1240
00:58:35,329 --> 00:58:33,329
wrong about almost everything and many

1241
00:58:37,309 --> 00:58:35,339
interviews that I'm continuing to do in

1242
00:58:41,390 --> 00:58:37,319
support of that book that are over on

1243
00:58:42,829 --> 00:58:41,400
the why science is wrong comm website if

1244
00:58:44,870 --> 00:58:42,839
you enjoy the show you might enjoy

1245
00:58:47,239 --> 00:58:44,880
checking some of those out please feel

1246
00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:47,249
free to do so and also to the many of

1247
00:58:51,380 --> 00:58:49,170
you who are emailing me and are coming

1248
00:58:53,900 --> 00:58:51,390
to the show brand-new and are enjoying

1249
00:58:56,390 --> 00:58:53,910
going through the old archives of shows

1250
00:58:59,359 --> 00:58:56,400
hey that's great they're all available

1251
00:59:01,670 --> 00:58:59,369
they are from the web site for free

1252
00:59:03,049 --> 00:59:01,680
there's a there's the download links all

1253
00:59:06,890 --> 00:59:03,059
the shows of course you can also

1254
00:59:08,420 --> 00:59:06,900
subscribe on iTunes stitcher any other

1255
00:59:11,329 --> 00:59:08,430
way you might want to get the show it's

1256
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:11,339
all there for free I hope you take

1257
00:59:14,509 --> 00:59:12,930
advantage of it and do let me know I

1258
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:14,519
love to hear people even if you're going

1259
00:59:18,709 --> 00:59:16,170
through a show that was a couple years

1260
00:59:21,319 --> 00:59:18,719
ago you can start a dialogue on it and

1261
00:59:23,330 --> 00:59:21,329
we can talk or someone else will join in

1262
00:59:26,300 --> 00:59:23,340
and join in the conversation of that

1263
00:59:28,220 --> 00:59:26,310
everything old is new again so don't

1264
00:59:30,740 --> 00:59:28,230
feel afraid to drop me a note on an

1265
00:59:32,990 --> 00:59:30,750
older show well that's gonna do it then

1266
00:59:34,070 --> 00:59:33,000
for this episode of skeptic oh thanks

1267
00:59:36,230 --> 00:59:34,080
for staying with me thanks for

1268
00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:36,240
supporting the show I really do enjoy

1269
00:59:40,070 --> 00:59:38,250
these conversations that we have

1270
00:59:43,130 --> 00:59:40,080
together that's how I think of them I

1271
00:59:44,810 --> 00:59:43,140
think of myself talking to you as that

1272
00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:44,820
at the same time that I'm talking to